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and it hits me oh my gosh this is that

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triangle

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you know there's explanation for

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everything that occurred in the

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Rendlesham forest incident didn't

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involve aliens at all it was completely

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silent it comes right over our head he's

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also really standing in the clearing he

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turned over to my father and held his

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hand and he looked in his eyes and said

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we're not alone welcome to podcast UFO

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for our live show

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we're live every Wednesday at 8 p.m.

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Eastern Standard Time on the dark matter

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radio network please remember to visit

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the website podcast UFO calm for past

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episodes blogs and forums during the

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show feel free to participate live in

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our chat room and don't forget to like

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us on our very active Facebook page okay

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so we're gonna do the news we're gonna

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do it a little bit different I'm stuck

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in a hotel room what do they call it

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unplugged yes alejandro unplugged how

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are you I'm good how are you doing good

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so you had a UFO story that you were

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telling when nobody was hearing so let's

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so let's hear that okay I'm gonna move

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to a different one and then go back to

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that one okay just to mix it up this is

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a new one okay so this is a MUFON

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sighting submitted to us by Roger Marsh

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so the director of communication for

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MUFON who who writes for us about some

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of the good stories going on this event

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took place on September 10th at 3:45

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p.m.

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it was a cloudless blue sky when this

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gentleman and his wife saw something

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weird in the sky they thought it might

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be a satellite but it was actually

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during the day so he and his wife were

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able to get a video camera and a

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binoculars or even a telescope to train

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on this object and you can hear them

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unlike a recent UFO video where the guy

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was not being very nice to his friend

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this is a nice couple where he's being

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really nice he's like alright baby yeah

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you're smart you got it together so he's

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complimenting her a lot so

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so that was nice to hear but the video

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does show a white object you can't tell

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necessarily what the movement is the

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gentleman said it was kind of standing

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still but in the video he said it moved

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around and they felt it was triangular

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in shape in the video it does seem kind

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of like it's changing shape and one of

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the close-up pictures it does look

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triangular so it's possible it was a

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grouping of balloons or something like

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that

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in fact this person said it did seem

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like there were multiple colors although

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the video you just see white but it's

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not completely typical they saw this

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moving around and then it moved at an

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angle before kind of flying off and it

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took about ten minutes for them to to

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see this thing and they recorded a

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couple minutes here which they submitted

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to MUFON and you can see it here in the

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video it was being investigated by one

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of the MUFON guys chief investigator

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Marianne Snyder she was unable to

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identify necessarily what it was her

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best guess was it was a UAV and I think

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that's what she finally chose us to

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disposition but she did rule out the ISS

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and other satellites but I don't even

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know that you can see the ISS during the

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day I don't think you can I don't think

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so either out it no yeah I mean it's

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super bright at night and it's a sight

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to see

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yes right that's for sure but not during

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the day so this was kind of a weird one

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so people can check that out at the site

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but this is he exciting the one this is

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one that that I think is really cool and

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did you enjoy it when I told the story

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last time Martin no I yeah okay you were

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gonna say that's funny I'm just giving

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you a hard time yeah yeah no this is a

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good one I think this is written by

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Philip Mantle's so he just sent this

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story in and

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was pretty much this season that

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reminded him of this whole incident he

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sent this in and he says it's his

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favorite UFO investigation ever so

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pretty cool hmm he says he heard about

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this story on Friday the 13th in October

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of 1986 ooh and he was doing a Halloween

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kind of interview and they somebody

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called him and he was actually

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investigating with mark Birdsall that's

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who his buddy was who actually he

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investigated with this her name was mrs.

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Westermann and she reported that

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actually in the summer of 1979 she had a

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very odd experience her and her children

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and others there was in total something

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like seven or eight witnesses to this

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event when she got involved she heard

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the kids talking about something some

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sort of commotion and she comes out back

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and there is this kind of dome-shaped

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object in the middle of this big field

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behind their homes she didn't know what

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was going on it looked like there are

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some people in front of it she walked

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back to the back fences of the yard to

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get a closer look to see what these

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people were doing these people then

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three individuals look like three men

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kind of walked behind the object and

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then the object lifted up and shot up

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into the sky and it's you know your

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typical saucer looking thing so really

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strange she's these men were dressed in

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outfits that were metallic type of

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silver from head to toe and she said

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that when they did move there were

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creases in it so she could see that much

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she thought they were people she assumed

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they were just ready to gather people

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until this thing lifted up and shot off

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and what was strange about it as well is

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that you know it did have to at least

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negotiate some high-power wire lines

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that were in the area above this field

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so Phil and Mark then did interviews

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with the witnesses including the

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children they found out that the

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children actually saw this object land

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and then saw these

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people come from behind it and then you

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know when their mom came out they went

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back to the other side of it and then

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the object took off they felt all of

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these people were very credible they've

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talked to him throughout the years and

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they've maintained their story and it's

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something that was a big deal they kind

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of described the object as a a Mexican

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hat which is not uncommon of a

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description for saucer shaped shape

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objects we hear that quite a bit

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actually sombrero

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yeah yeah sombrero so it was really

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strange and that is really saying

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something that you know Philip mantle

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would say this is his strangest case

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because you know he's been investigating

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for decades he's an expert out there in

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the UK he's written several books some

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of his latest books have been written

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with Paul Stonehill including the last

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one Russian uso cases

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so Paul stone you know it's actually

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going to be at the UFO Congress with

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your guests tonight we'll all be there

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to talk UFO so Paul Sonjia will be

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talking about these Russian cases but

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really cool case I was really happy

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Philip Mantle's been submitting stories

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for us to post in the last few weeks he

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he's done this periodically in the past

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but now he's doing it more regularly and

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so does Paul Stonehill but there's some

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really cool cases so this is a good one

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that is a good one yeah and I really did

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mean that I mean before when you asked

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me if I liked it

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I was joking this is a really good case

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I I could tell because you were hesitant

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you know and because you're a nice guy

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you don't want to commit to that to the

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teasing but I can take it yeah okay I've

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gotten too criticized for how much I

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give it to you so I know I'm just Lee

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though all right hey who wrote the one

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of the four words in this the book that

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we're talking about tonight and that

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book is called fact fiction and flying

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saucers by Stanton Friedman and Kathleen

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Mardon oh wow if I had written up

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forward that would especially to a

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from from these two that would be a huge

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deal that I would be done that lane of

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mine will drop that would be perfect you

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wrote a review I shake it yeah right guy

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kick it to let write a little review

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which I am still extremely flattered I

207
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was so happy that they asked me to do

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that because they're two of my favorite

209
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so luckily we've been luckily enough to

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have them come to the last few UFO

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congress's and this year they're gonna

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both be speaking so that'll be really

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exciting and the epsilonpu of its so

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it's really exciting wonderful well

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thanks oh yeah it'll be fun as usual and

216
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it'll be warm instead of the way it is

217
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here you'll be able to go to the pool or

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the hot tub I don't know that I've seen

219
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you at the hot tub before those Dan well

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I don't know how to swim back well the

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hot tubs very shallow so well I don't

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try that out this year nice and relaxing

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alright darling I'm gonna thanks so much

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alright talk to you guys later have a

225
00:10:07,550 --> 00:10:04,680
good show all right take care well Stan

226
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and Kathleen thanks so much for joining

227
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us I was pleased to get your book in the

228
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mail and read through I think I

229
00:10:18,439 --> 00:10:15,329
mentioned to you Cathy that I'm a slow

230
00:10:20,620 --> 00:10:18,449
reader but I got to page like 190

231
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something in the last three weeks so

232
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really really enjoyed enjoyed this book

233
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and would like to talk to you I believe

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that everybody that listens to the show

235
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knows who you are but just in a quick

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nutshell Kathleen you are the niece of

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Betty hill and you've been heavily

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involved in abduction research and you

239
00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:47,399
actually represent I forget what it's

240
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called and MUFON can you just tell the

241
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listening audience a little bit about

242
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that yes I'm the director of muffins

243
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experience or research team and we are

244
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the arm of MUFON that speaks to

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experiencers in a non-judgmental manner

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we

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I will participate with field

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investigators in doing investigations if

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they have an abduction investigation and

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want some help from us and we make

251
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reefer girls - ooh

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experiencers who are looking for support

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groups or for hypnotherapists and we

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also do research we have an ongoing

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questionnaire it has a hundred and

256
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eighteen questions it's called the

257
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experiencer survey and it's on move

258
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funds main page at MUFON calm now how

259
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many people have partaken so far in this

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survey we have about 350 right now we're

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looking for 500 and we'll end it at 500

262
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and move on to Phase two of it we have

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two two phases someone was asking online

264
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this question comes up quite a bit Cathy

265
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do you happen to know if either Betty or

266
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Barney had Rh negative blood type I know

267
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that Betty had well I think she had Rh

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positive I'm not certain about Barney

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but my research showed that the majority

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of experiencers have Rh positive blood

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types

272
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:43,240
but the Rh negative blood type is

273
00:12:54,430 --> 00:12:47,120
elevated among experiences it's elevated

274
00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:54,440
in like the scale yes yeah that's there

275
00:13:00,610 --> 00:12:57,290
was I know Nick Redfern did a little bit

276
00:13:03,930 --> 00:13:00,620
about that it is pretty interesting so

277
00:13:12,420 --> 00:13:03,940
stand it seems like we don't really need

278
00:13:14,860 --> 00:13:12,430
you to introduce yourself but but anyway

279
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:14,870
well you've been on so many times on

280
00:13:20,890 --> 00:13:17,450
this plus anytime anyone wants to watch

281
00:13:24,900 --> 00:13:20,900
anything on UFOs there you are you're I

282
00:13:27,370 --> 00:13:24,910
don't know how many films documentaries

283
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:27,380
Larry King you name it I don't know how

284
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:28,850
many you've been on I don't know if you

285
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:32,570
ever counted have you no I haven't you

286
00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:33,920
know after the first couple of hundred

287
00:13:41,530 --> 00:13:36,310
it gets to be I won't say routine but

288
00:13:45,370 --> 00:13:41,540
who's keeping score yeah we'll say it

289
00:13:48,070 --> 00:13:45,380
was four times on Larry King yeah those

290
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:48,080
are great and I really you know there

291
00:13:55,270 --> 00:13:51,050
was some kind of gnarly skeptics or

292
00:13:57,250 --> 00:13:55,280
debunkers on on those but I recommend if

293
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:57,260
anyone hasn't seen those you can I think

294
00:14:01,570 --> 00:13:58,880
you can catch most of them on YouTube a

295
00:14:03,820 --> 00:14:01,580
lot of the segments that's what people

296
00:14:05,980 --> 00:14:03,830
tell me I don't know I don't spend a lot

297
00:14:07,930 --> 00:14:05,990
of time with YouTube but apparently I

298
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:07,940
can find almost anything but somebody

299
00:14:11,890 --> 00:14:09,890
turned up with one lesson gee that

300
00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:11,900
doesn't look familiar what when he was

301
00:14:18,550 --> 00:14:14,540
describing it and I didn't see it I said

302
00:14:20,140 --> 00:14:18,560
what color was my hair black well then I

303
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:20,150
remembered it was a show that had been

304
00:14:28,510 --> 00:14:23,450
done about 20 years there when I was

305
00:14:32,020 --> 00:14:28,520
younger yeah you know there's a lot of

306
00:14:33,670 --> 00:14:32,030
stuff out there and I don't I really

307
00:14:37,060 --> 00:14:33,680
don't Park myself in front of the tube

308
00:14:39,190 --> 00:14:37,070
to watch what I've been on yeah it's

309
00:14:40,060 --> 00:14:39,200
more fun to do other things yeah

310
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:40,070
absolutely

311
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:43,610
so what inspired you to to co-author

312
00:14:52,060 --> 00:14:49,130
this book well either one in bingo okay

313
00:14:56,170 --> 00:14:52,070
I will go well you know this dates all

314
00:14:59,260 --> 00:14:56,180
the way back to 2010 and Stan and I were

315
00:15:01,630 --> 00:14:59,270
talking about what our next book would

316
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:01,640
be after science was wrong

317
00:15:06,610 --> 00:15:03,920
we thought that we wanted to write

318
00:15:10,260 --> 00:15:06,620
another one and so we started talking

319
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:10,270
about it and Stan said that he really

320
00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:13,130
wanted to write something about dr.

321
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:16,750
Donald Menzel the the Harvard

322
00:15:22,570 --> 00:15:19,250
astrophysicists too was such a huge

323
00:15:26,110 --> 00:15:22,580
debunker and I really wanted to include

324
00:15:28,270 --> 00:15:26,120
Philip Glass in the book and go to the

325
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:28,280
American Philosophical Society

326
00:15:34,450 --> 00:15:32,450
where classes our Kylie collection is

327
00:15:36,820 --> 00:15:34,460
and do a lot

328
00:15:40,150 --> 00:15:36,830
research there which I ended up doing

329
00:15:43,930 --> 00:15:40,160
and so over time we discussed it and

330
00:15:49,570 --> 00:15:43,940
finally after six years of combined

331
00:15:53,230 --> 00:15:49,580
research efforts we have the book well

332
00:15:57,190 --> 00:15:53,240
and I should add that not many books dig

333
00:16:00,220 --> 00:15:57,200
into the reality of the debunker crowd

334
00:16:04,330 --> 00:16:00,230
and the fact that something is fishy

335
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:04,340
there in other words we have people who

336
00:16:10,450 --> 00:16:06,770
were too smart not to know that they

337
00:16:14,350 --> 00:16:10,460
were being deceptive misleading lying

338
00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:14,360
can I say that I do well and you know

339
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:16,940
part of our focus was on dr. Edward u

340
00:16:23,380 --> 00:16:19,490
Condon as a physicist I have to say he

341
00:16:25,810 --> 00:16:23,390
was a well-known excellent physicist he

342
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:25,820
but he directed the Condon study at the

343
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:28,490
University of Colorado study and came

344
00:16:33,850 --> 00:16:30,650
out with some things that were pretty

345
00:16:36,910 --> 00:16:33,860
darn strange pretty stupid frankly which

346
00:16:38,110 --> 00:16:36,920
bugged me because a physicist I even had

347
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:38,120
been president the American Physical

348
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:41,570
Society president of the American

349
00:16:45,940 --> 00:16:42,770
Association for the Advancement of

350
00:16:48,250 --> 00:16:45,950
science you know this is not a dink and

351
00:16:49,810 --> 00:16:48,260
how I could say some of the things Cathy

352
00:16:52,630 --> 00:16:49,820
you probably know it better than I did

353
00:16:54,970 --> 00:16:52,640
that quote about no alien life will be

354
00:16:59,100 --> 00:16:54,980
visiting for 10,000 years or something

355
00:17:03,870 --> 00:16:59,110
like that yeah see it that's what it was

356
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:03,880
Stan is that we could not expect

357
00:17:10,930 --> 00:17:07,850
intelligent life from elsewhere to visit

358
00:17:13,120 --> 00:17:10,940
our solar system in the next 10,000

359
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:13,130
years how could someone come up with

360
00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:17,930
that we were curious about I mean there

361
00:17:21,820 --> 00:17:20,000
has to be some kind of explanation for

362
00:17:28,690 --> 00:17:21,830
such a stupid remark from such a smart

363
00:17:30,670 --> 00:17:28,700
guy and class we I had run-ins with him

364
00:17:33,610 --> 00:17:30,680
and there's no question that his

365
00:17:38,110 --> 00:17:33,620
debunking was unscientific irrational

366
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:38,120
nasty etc and I still haven't found the

367
00:17:43,090 --> 00:17:40,400
smoking gun I wonder if anybody

368
00:17:47,330 --> 00:17:43,100
listening to us happens to know some

369
00:17:49,550 --> 00:17:47,340
inside stuff about why or who phil was

370
00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:49,560
looking for to come up with so many

371
00:17:54,620 --> 00:17:52,110
irrational explanations and to be so

372
00:18:00,140 --> 00:17:54,630
nasty about it I got a kick out of

373
00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:00,150
Donald Trump calling Hillary Clinton but

374
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:02,400
what is what were the exact words she's

375
00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:05,490
so nasty something like that I think he

376
00:18:09,650 --> 00:18:06,960
was talking about her campaign or

377
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:09,660
something well I think I know what you

378
00:18:13,790 --> 00:18:10,410
mean

379
00:18:17,810 --> 00:18:13,800
well he said I saw him say it to her

380
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:17,820
during the debate but the thing is it's

381
00:18:24,890 --> 00:18:21,360
hard to understand why class was so

382
00:18:26,540 --> 00:18:24,900
nasty to a lot of people and so lucky

383
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:26,550
was a senior avionics editor for

384
00:18:31,910 --> 00:18:28,530
Aviation Week and space technology a

385
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:31,920
respectable publication and based in

386
00:18:36,590 --> 00:18:33,810
Washington so he was the go-to man

387
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:36,600
whenever the media needed somebody close

388
00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:40,290
by phil was there but he said so many

389
00:18:47,090 --> 00:18:42,110
things that were so obviously

390
00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:47,100
nonsensical and nasty and you know I

391
00:18:54,650 --> 00:18:49,080
still don't know who he was working for

392
00:18:56,660 --> 00:18:54,660
if besides himself but so one of the

393
00:18:58,130 --> 00:18:56,670
things about the book was we try to

394
00:18:58,610 --> 00:18:58,140
cover ground that other people haven't

395
00:19:03,470 --> 00:18:58,620
covered

396
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:03,480
hmm I think that's a fair statement in

397
00:19:09,410 --> 00:19:06,050
other words it is not case after case

398
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:09,420
it's trying to understand some of the

399
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:11,130
strange things that have happened with

400
00:19:15,890 --> 00:19:14,010
regard to how the media how the

401
00:19:18,380 --> 00:19:15,900
scientific community and others have

402
00:19:19,820 --> 00:19:18,390
dealt with this subject certainly in an

403
00:19:23,930 --> 00:19:19,830
irrational fashion

404
00:19:27,050 --> 00:19:23,940
I mean I'm ashamed as a scientist as a

405
00:19:29,630 --> 00:19:27,060
physicist with some of the things that

406
00:19:32,660 --> 00:19:29,640
these guys have said and with classes

407
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:32,670
attacks on dr. James E McDonald I knew

408
00:19:36,170 --> 00:19:33,330
Jim

409
00:19:39,740 --> 00:19:36,180
I consider him the number one ufologist

410
00:19:42,620 --> 00:19:39,750
ever and the the dirty tricks that

411
00:19:45,980 --> 00:19:42,630
Christ tried to pull on him were really

412
00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:45,990
something else yeah so these are things

413
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:48,630
you know you want to know why people who

414
00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:53,850
weren't stupid why they took the

415
00:19:57,590 --> 00:19:55,430
attitudes they did and at least

416
00:19:58,730 --> 00:19:57,600
demonstrate that what they said was

417
00:20:03,560 --> 00:19:58,740
irrational

418
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:03,570
and and nasty and so we set out to try

419
00:20:08,450 --> 00:20:06,210
to cover some of that ground and in

420
00:20:10,519 --> 00:20:08,460
looking back at the book I think no

421
00:20:13,940 --> 00:20:10,529
other book covers the same ground do you

422
00:20:16,010 --> 00:20:13,950
think so no I don't think so

423
00:20:22,940 --> 00:20:16,020
one of the things I noticed is that the

424
00:20:24,799 --> 00:20:22,950
the chapter on Philip classes though I

425
00:20:27,740 --> 00:20:24,809
think it's the longest one of all them

426
00:20:32,060 --> 00:20:27,750
isn't it as far as like the debunker

427
00:20:35,149 --> 00:20:32,070
personalities yes there's more than one

428
00:20:40,850 --> 00:20:35,159
Philip lasts work yes I did cover a lot

429
00:20:43,940 --> 00:20:40,860
and he had very extensive files in at

430
00:20:47,299 --> 00:20:43,950
his archival collection and I was very

431
00:20:50,389 --> 00:20:47,309
very surprised to learn that he had

432
00:20:53,930 --> 00:20:50,399
close connections close relationships

433
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:53,940
with people like Donald Menzel with

434
00:20:59,570 --> 00:20:57,360
Edward Condon with Robert Lowe who was

435
00:21:04,549 --> 00:20:59,580
the project coordinator on the Condon

436
00:21:08,180 --> 00:21:04,559
committee and with Hector quintanilla

437
00:21:12,789 --> 00:21:08,190
who was the director of Project Blue

438
00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:12,799
Book from 1963 until 1970 and in

439
00:21:21,289 --> 00:21:18,750
Cantonese autobiography I found a little

440
00:21:24,799 --> 00:21:21,299
paragraph where he thanked Philip Glass

441
00:21:27,710 --> 00:21:24,809
for his help on Project Blue Book he

442
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:27,720
also thanked Donald medal for his help

443
00:21:35,659 --> 00:21:31,890
so here they were acting as unpaid

444
00:21:38,779 --> 00:21:35,669
advisers on Project Blue Book to debunk

445
00:21:42,620 --> 00:21:38,789
UFOs through deductive reasoning it had

446
00:21:44,690 --> 00:21:42,630
nothing to do with the facts but but

447
00:21:47,419 --> 00:21:44,700
just dispensed with the evidence in

448
00:21:50,870 --> 00:21:47,429
other words right well we did I will say

449
00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:50,880
this we didn't find anything as blatant

450
00:21:58,870 --> 00:21:55,200
as I found about Menzel I mean I had one

451
00:22:01,970 --> 00:21:58,880
run-in with the man he wrote books in

452
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:01,980
1950s debunking books his first book was

453
00:22:08,060 --> 00:22:05,010
translated into Russian and here he was

454
00:22:10,970 --> 00:22:08,070
a Banda ping after a while head of the

455
00:22:11,869 --> 00:22:10,980
astronomy department at Harvard and how

456
00:22:15,319 --> 00:22:11,879
does one

457
00:22:18,609 --> 00:22:15,329
explain that so my discovery which came

458
00:22:23,659 --> 00:22:18,619
as quite a shock to me he had the

459
00:22:27,829 --> 00:22:23,669
Harvard archives that he told Jack

460
00:22:29,989 --> 00:22:27,839
Kennedy in writing that he had a longer

461
00:22:35,839 --> 00:22:29,999
continuous association with the National

462
00:22:39,289 --> 00:22:35,849
Security Agency of anybody 30 years and

463
00:22:41,269 --> 00:22:39,299
when we are properly cleared to eat each

464
00:22:43,069 --> 00:22:41,279
other I can tell you more

465
00:22:45,769 --> 00:22:43,079
he thought that under Eisenhower the NSA

466
00:22:49,609 --> 00:22:45,779
hadn't been treated properly but who

467
00:22:51,949 --> 00:22:49,619
knew that mental thing and I'm convinced

468
00:22:56,709 --> 00:22:51,959
I was looking for work of looking for

469
00:22:59,449 --> 00:22:56,719
facts about operation majestic 12 and

470
00:23:02,209 --> 00:22:59,459
Mendel was listed and at first thought

471
00:23:04,669 --> 00:23:02,219
was this is kind of a joke how could he

472
00:23:07,309 --> 00:23:04,679
be one of twelve guys who were appointed

473
00:23:12,709 --> 00:23:07,319
by President Truman to really dig into

474
00:23:14,239 --> 00:23:12,719
flying saucers and benzel everybody else

475
00:23:17,779 --> 00:23:14,249
had a clearance it was easy to establish

476
00:23:20,239 --> 00:23:17,789
that a high-level security clearance but

477
00:23:23,299 --> 00:23:20,249
I stumbled that's the way these things

478
00:23:26,089 --> 00:23:23,309
happen I guess across a memo in the

479
00:23:28,759 --> 00:23:26,099
files of dr. Vannevar Bush who was a top

480
00:23:32,089 --> 00:23:28,769
scientist and Roosevelt scientific

481
00:23:32,749 --> 00:23:32,099
adviser and and supposedly a member of

482
00:23:34,579 --> 00:23:32,759
mj-12

483
00:23:37,909 --> 00:23:34,589
he would have to have been because he

484
00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:37,919
was the right guy all right and there

485
00:23:43,339 --> 00:23:40,289
was a letter in his files from a lawyer

486
00:23:47,239 --> 00:23:43,349
thanking him for helping get Donald

487
00:23:50,180 --> 00:23:47,249
Menzel off of charges of disloyalty they

488
00:23:53,180 --> 00:23:50,190
were big hearings held and that shook me

489
00:23:54,799 --> 00:23:53,190
up I called the lawyer you know

490
00:23:58,009 --> 00:23:54,809
wondering what the heck is this all

491
00:23:59,689 --> 00:23:58,019
about and the lawyer said yes there's

492
00:24:04,249 --> 00:23:59,699
about a thousand pages at the Harvard

493
00:24:09,499 --> 00:24:04,259
archives and there was the testimony he

494
00:24:10,729 --> 00:24:09,509
was released so to speak yeah they want

495
00:24:13,549 --> 00:24:10,739
to take away a high-level security

496
00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:13,559
clearance and mom thinking what security

497
00:24:16,819 --> 00:24:14,609
things you don't need a security

498
00:24:20,629 --> 00:24:16,829
clearance and to teach astronomy at

499
00:24:22,309 --> 00:24:20,639
Harvard right and and so that led me to

500
00:24:23,569 --> 00:24:22,319
pursue it I had to get permission for

501
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:23,579
three different people to look at his

502
00:24:27,460 --> 00:24:25,370
papers at Harvard

503
00:24:29,170 --> 00:24:27,470
and that's where I saw this letter and a

504
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:29,180
lot of other material he was a

505
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:32,450
world-class cryptologist and a few years

506
00:24:35,830 --> 00:24:34,010
ago a paper was even published in a

507
00:24:40,090 --> 00:24:35,840
scientific journal the Cryptologic

508
00:24:43,060 --> 00:24:40,100
contributions of Donald Menzel hmm

509
00:24:45,940 --> 00:24:43,070
so that came as a very big surprise and

510
00:24:48,940 --> 00:24:45,950
many people in ufology got mad I mean I

511
00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:48,950
had written a paper you the double life

512
00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:49,910
of Donald Menzel

513
00:24:55,540 --> 00:24:53,200
and you can't he couldn't have been a

514
00:24:58,930 --> 00:24:55,550
member of such a group he was a deep

515
00:25:00,520 --> 00:24:58,940
bunker and none of these people as far

516
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:00,530
as I can tell have gone to the Harvard

517
00:25:06,010 --> 00:25:02,450
archives so look at the words that he

518
00:25:08,020 --> 00:25:06,020
said the things that he did but so

519
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:08,030
finding that gave me confidence that

520
00:25:13,570 --> 00:25:10,310
there might be a lot of people who were

521
00:25:17,410 --> 00:25:13,580
doing the devil's work if you will that

522
00:25:22,030 --> 00:25:17,420
we didn't know about and so I came to

523
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:22,040
appreciate men don't believe it you know

524
00:25:28,350 --> 00:25:24,650
well at least I could see why he was

525
00:25:31,420 --> 00:25:28,360
taking the view he was taking I and

526
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:31,430
being a member of majestic 12 and of

527
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:32,810
course there's still people in ufology

528
00:25:37,540 --> 00:25:34,640
who haven't read my book top secret

529
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:37,550
magic who don't know how strong the case

530
00:25:45,550 --> 00:25:40,570
is for there having been a majestic 12

531
00:25:47,710 --> 00:25:45,560
and so we tried in the book to cover a

532
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:47,720
lot of these probably to some people

533
00:25:54,310 --> 00:25:52,610
surprising angles like Menzel being

534
00:25:56,020 --> 00:25:54,320
somebody very different from what we

535
00:25:59,740 --> 00:25:56,030
thought it was there I should add that

536
00:26:02,110 --> 00:25:59,750
there are two issues of sky and

537
00:26:03,820 --> 00:26:02,120
telescope which is a very important

538
00:26:07,060 --> 00:26:03,830
magazine for I'll call an amateur

539
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:07,070
astronomers devoted to Donald Menzel

540
00:26:13,180 --> 00:26:10,730
first on the occasion of his death and

541
00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:13,190
the second on 100th anniversary of his

542
00:26:16,330 --> 00:26:13,520
birth

543
00:26:18,990 --> 00:26:16,340
neither one says anything about all his

544
00:26:22,990 --> 00:26:19,000
post-world War two

545
00:26:24,490 --> 00:26:23,000
highly classified work hmm which tells

546
00:26:26,740 --> 00:26:24,500
you that it was a very well-kept secret

547
00:26:28,420 --> 00:26:26,750
and I mentioned it's only because and

548
00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:28,430
I'm sure Kathy gets this too oh the

549
00:26:32,980 --> 00:26:31,310
government can't keep secrets and those

550
00:26:35,140 --> 00:26:32,990
members of mj-12 they would have all

551
00:26:37,060 --> 00:26:35,150
told their wives what they do well I

552
00:26:37,710 --> 00:26:37,070
will say I had a clearance for fourteen

553
00:26:40,410 --> 00:26:37,720
years

554
00:26:43,260 --> 00:26:40,420
I never told my wife anything classified

555
00:26:47,310 --> 00:26:43,270
ever we against the law

556
00:26:51,050 --> 00:26:47,320
I could lose my job etc it's just the

557
00:26:56,790 --> 00:26:54,180
but mental and that when I asked his

558
00:26:59,940 --> 00:26:56,800
wife I talked to his wife this is after

559
00:27:01,530 --> 00:26:59,950
he's dead of course and she said she

560
00:27:04,860 --> 00:27:01,540
knew nothing about it's classified work

561
00:27:06,750 --> 00:27:04,870
I talked to his secretary who had a

562
00:27:08,820 --> 00:27:06,760
clearance in order to handle his

563
00:27:12,060 --> 00:27:08,830
classified material she knew that he did

564
00:27:14,510 --> 00:27:12,070
classified work but she wasn't very

565
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:14,520
forthcoming about anything about

566
00:27:21,210 --> 00:27:18,250
anything like that but security is

567
00:27:23,730 --> 00:27:21,220
something because I spent 14 years and I

568
00:27:26,820 --> 00:27:23,740
know a lot about I wrote classified

569
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:26,830
documents I did one study I never even

570
00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:29,170
was able to keep a copy of my final

571
00:27:36,690 --> 00:27:32,950
report it was too classified and so

572
00:27:39,420 --> 00:27:36,700
restricted I wish I had it is matter

573
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:39,430
fact but I don't and I I would never

574
00:27:44,660 --> 00:27:41,520
have kept a copy of something like that

575
00:27:48,030 --> 00:27:44,670
you just don't do that sort of thing so

576
00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:48,040
that that has been a big incentive for

577
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:51,910
me and also III think there's something

578
00:27:59,490 --> 00:27:55,440
I'll mention nobody else really plays up

579
00:28:03,180 --> 00:27:59,500
the role of Air Force general Carrol

580
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:03,190
Bohlander engineer and he wrote the memo

581
00:28:08,490 --> 00:28:05,410
that resulted in the closure of Project

582
00:28:11,190 --> 00:28:08,500
Blue Book and we didn't see this memo

583
00:28:13,770 --> 00:28:11,200
was written in like 69 we didn't see it

584
00:28:17,910 --> 00:28:13,780
until 1979 I think it was released by

585
00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:17,920
accident frankly but in which he made

586
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:21,310
the astonishing claim that reports of

587
00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:22,930
UFOs which could affect national

588
00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:27,400
security are not part of the Blue Book

589
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:30,310
system hmm now one would have thought

590
00:28:37,290 --> 00:28:31,570
that they would have been the main focus

591
00:28:39,690 --> 00:28:37,300
of the blue have seen he also said he

592
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:39,700
also said that if we close project we'll

593
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:41,530
look this is into this memo that he

594
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:43,210
wrote that resulted in the closure of

595
00:28:53,820 --> 00:28:49,330
project movement he also said that the

596
00:28:55,409 --> 00:28:53,830
public will have no place to report UFO

597
00:28:56,009 --> 00:28:55,419
sightings of projects will book is

598
00:28:58,769 --> 00:28:56,019
closed

599
00:29:00,409 --> 00:28:58,779
however as previously noted reports

600
00:29:03,029 --> 00:29:00,419
which could affect national security

601
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:03,039
will continue to be investigated using

602
00:29:07,350 --> 00:29:05,710
procedures designed for that purpose now

603
00:29:09,389 --> 00:29:07,360
from how many years is the Air Force

604
00:29:11,879 --> 00:29:09,399
been saying there was no security angle

605
00:29:14,009 --> 00:29:11,889
here we haven't been doing anything

606
00:29:16,499 --> 00:29:14,019
about UFOs well maybe it's true ones

607
00:29:17,909 --> 00:29:16,509
done by operation majestic glow but

608
00:29:19,859 --> 00:29:17,919
that's the question if they didn't go to

609
00:29:24,330 --> 00:29:19,869
the Air Force where that did they go

610
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:24,340
and I think mj-12 majestic 12 provides a

611
00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:27,850
very convenient explanation for that so

612
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:29,710
we try to weave all this stuff together

613
00:29:37,940 --> 00:29:34,690
in the book yeah a question I have for

614
00:29:40,769 --> 00:29:37,950
youse this is for you Stan and that is

615
00:29:43,859 --> 00:29:40,779
you know I've heard you say a number of

616
00:29:48,299 --> 00:29:43,869
times that you know it's pretty obvious

617
00:29:52,259 --> 00:29:48,309
the government is covering this topic up

618
00:29:53,249 --> 00:29:52,269
basically and I'm like Watergate Yeah

619
00:29:55,619 --> 00:29:53,259
right

620
00:29:59,340 --> 00:29:55,629
but the question I have - what do you

621
00:30:01,619 --> 00:29:59,350
think about what they actually know

622
00:30:03,330 --> 00:30:01,629
about what's going on do you think

623
00:30:04,950 --> 00:30:03,340
they're just as puzzled as the rest of

624
00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:04,960
us or do you think they know something

625
00:30:08,879 --> 00:30:06,809
that we don't know

626
00:30:10,379 --> 00:30:08,889
well I think they're you don't keep

627
00:30:12,659 --> 00:30:10,389
secrets by telling everybody and

628
00:30:15,210 --> 00:30:12,669
hopefully nobody tell us what they know

629
00:30:16,889 --> 00:30:15,220
you tell as few people as possible and

630
00:30:18,899 --> 00:30:16,899
they have to have an appropriate very

631
00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:18,909
high-level security clearance and an

632
00:30:23,399 --> 00:30:20,080
appropriate need-to-know

633
00:30:24,479 --> 00:30:23,409
I think there are some few people in

634
00:30:25,979 --> 00:30:24,489
other words I don't want to say the

635
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:25,989
government knows this is that there are

636
00:30:30,899 --> 00:30:28,080
some few people within the government

637
00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:30,909
that know the whole story that know what

638
00:30:36,269 --> 00:30:32,799
we've learned from aliens that have been

639
00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:36,279
recovered in crashed saucers that know

640
00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:38,529
what technological secrets we've picked

641
00:30:43,049 --> 00:30:41,289
up along the way that know what kind of

642
00:30:47,549 --> 00:30:43,059
measurements have been made of aircraft

643
00:30:49,859 --> 00:30:47,559
chasing UFOs with instrumentation but

644
00:30:51,899 --> 00:30:49,869
these aren't things that you go telling

645
00:30:55,950 --> 00:30:51,909
everybody that's not how the system

646
00:31:00,539 --> 00:30:55,960
works so I think there's some few people

647
00:31:03,150 --> 00:31:00,549
that know a great deal and I'm tending

648
00:31:05,100 --> 00:31:03,160
to believe the story about Ike have

649
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:05,110
met with aliens out at Holloman Air

650
00:31:14,550 --> 00:31:10,930
Force Base after Campbell talked to a

651
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:14,560
crew member of Ike's plane when he had

652
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:16,000
been when he was president when he was

653
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:19,510
supposedly playing golf in Georgia and

654
00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:22,240
was flown out to Holloman and he was his

655
00:31:27,450 --> 00:31:24,880
flame is at one end of the field and UFO

656
00:31:31,530 --> 00:31:27,460
was at the other end I tend to believe

657
00:31:34,470 --> 00:31:31,540
that but I have no idea of what went on

658
00:31:38,430 --> 00:31:34,480
what was the agreement you know we got

659
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:38,440
to see you guys for lunch or we will

660
00:31:43,650 --> 00:31:40,210
agree not to shoot at you if you don't

661
00:31:46,020 --> 00:31:43,660
clobber Iraq I have no idea there's

662
00:31:49,290 --> 00:31:46,030
plenty of room for investigation here

663
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:49,300
and what I'm hoping one of the reasons

664
00:31:54,030 --> 00:31:51,850
we're doing this book I have sensed I

665
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:54,040
mean you know I done over 700 lectures

666
00:31:58,920 --> 00:31:56,770
so I get a lot of feedback once figured

667
00:32:03,660 --> 00:31:58,930
I'd answered 60,000 questions and that

668
00:32:08,460 --> 00:32:03,670
was a few years back but the question

669
00:32:13,830 --> 00:32:08,470
comes up then what does it all mean and

670
00:32:15,570 --> 00:32:13,840
I still don't know I'd like to find out

671
00:32:20,850 --> 00:32:15,580
while I'm still alive maybe there's a

672
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:20,860
way to reach it from the other side yeah

673
00:32:26,060 --> 00:32:24,370
you know so III think there are some few

674
00:32:28,980 --> 00:32:26,070
people not only in our own government

675
00:32:30,780 --> 00:32:28,990
but in other governments but it's time

676
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:30,790
to say the attitude has changed in the

677
00:32:36,210 --> 00:32:33,250
sense that partly because of the Kepler

678
00:32:39,330 --> 00:32:36,220
satellite we know though that their

679
00:32:40,710 --> 00:32:39,340
planet so I'll over the darn place there

680
00:32:42,450 --> 00:32:40,720
wasn't too many here's that you could

681
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:42,460
get away with saying well I don't know

682
00:32:47,570 --> 00:32:44,530
if there's any other solar system we

683
00:32:50,130 --> 00:32:47,580
don't have any evidence now Frank Drake

684
00:32:51,660 --> 00:32:50,140
sort of to his credit a number of years

685
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:51,670
ago said there might be as many as

686
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:54,010
10,000 places in the galaxy that could

687
00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:56,320
be sending us radio signals he didn't

688
00:33:01,950 --> 00:32:58,090
answer the question as to why they would

689
00:33:06,290 --> 00:33:01,960
do that but now it appears that there

690
00:33:08,430 --> 00:33:06,300
are between 1 and 1.6 planets per star

691
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:08,440
that means that within a hundred

692
00:33:14,580 --> 00:33:10,450
light-years of here which just down the

693
00:33:16,499 --> 00:33:14,590
street so to speak there are 10,000

694
00:33:18,899 --> 00:33:16,509
stars and therefore at least 10 times

695
00:33:20,699 --> 00:33:18,909
employments I'm not saying they all have

696
00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:20,709
life but baseball player to get paid a

697
00:33:25,229 --> 00:33:22,809
lot of money for getting a hit 30% of

698
00:33:27,269 --> 00:33:25,239
the time you know you don't say that

699
00:33:29,189 --> 00:33:27,279
it's terrible because 70% of the time he

700
00:33:30,389 --> 00:33:29,199
didn't get it hit so you don't say that

701
00:33:31,469 --> 00:33:30,399
well since most sightings can be

702
00:33:34,039 --> 00:33:31,479
explained

703
00:33:40,829 --> 00:33:34,049
therefore all can be that's ridiculous

704
00:33:44,339 --> 00:33:40,839
but that many planets I never anymore

705
00:33:48,919 --> 00:33:44,349
here the notion that we're the only ones

706
00:33:51,739 --> 00:33:48,929
around hmm also we know that there are

707
00:33:53,999 --> 00:33:51,749
stars that have other stars close by

708
00:33:58,739 --> 00:33:54,009
we're out in the boonies the next star

709
00:34:00,209 --> 00:33:58,749
is 4.3 light years there are stars in

710
00:34:02,789 --> 00:34:00,219
the case of Betty and Barney Hill the

711
00:34:05,009 --> 00:34:02,799
storm out there the base star seems to

712
00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:05,019
be an eighth of a light year apart

713
00:34:09,720 --> 00:34:07,089
that's more than 30 times closer to each

714
00:34:11,730 --> 00:34:09,730
other I would expect that the

715
00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:11,740
probability of developing interstellar

716
00:34:17,039 --> 00:34:15,129
travel goes up as you have a near

717
00:34:20,329 --> 00:34:17,049
next-door neighbor so to speak as

718
00:34:25,740 --> 00:34:20,339
opposed to somebody across the county

719
00:34:29,099 --> 00:34:25,750
only makes sense so there's changing

720
00:34:32,849 --> 00:34:29,109
attitude and the rhythm Pope has even

721
00:34:35,430 --> 00:34:32,859
talked to her guys that work with the

722
00:34:38,460 --> 00:34:35,440
Pope have said that they would baptize

723
00:34:41,279 --> 00:34:38,470
an alien if they do that they didn't

724
00:34:44,549 --> 00:34:41,289
they didn't laugh so what I'm saying is

725
00:34:47,669 --> 00:34:44,559
the acceptance of the notion of other

726
00:34:50,460 --> 00:34:47,679
life out there if you go back to the

727
00:34:53,460 --> 00:34:50,470
hill experience in 1961 the attitude has

728
00:34:58,109 --> 00:34:53,470
surely changed very great deal since

729
00:35:00,690 --> 00:34:58,119
then yes yes absolutely

730
00:35:03,829 --> 00:35:00,700
Kathy I think there's a far broader

731
00:35:06,299 --> 00:35:03,839
acceptance today than there was then yes

732
00:35:09,089 --> 00:35:06,309
Kathy I have a question here too on the

733
00:35:13,019 --> 00:35:09,099
message board for you but just finishing

734
00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:13,029
that thought stand about the government

735
00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:15,730
or some compartmentalize part of the

736
00:35:21,289 --> 00:35:19,569
government having knowledge how would

737
00:35:26,430 --> 00:35:21,299
you think that would be passed down

738
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:26,440
generational through like a branch of

739
00:35:30,450 --> 00:35:27,970
the government in other words from

740
00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:30,460
Roswell till now without

741
00:35:38,130 --> 00:35:34,510
escaping leaking or anything secret

742
00:35:42,059 --> 00:35:38,140
secrets are easy to keep two things you

743
00:35:47,670 --> 00:35:42,069
need the appropriate clearance and you

744
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:47,680
need want here a need-to-know is the

745
00:35:53,099 --> 00:35:50,079
simplest expressions there's probably a

746
00:35:55,410 --> 00:35:53,109
fancier phrase than that and look

747
00:35:57,569 --> 00:35:55,420
marking spent over ten billion dollars

748
00:35:58,940 --> 00:35:57,579
to develop the stealth aircraft in

749
00:36:02,160 --> 00:35:58,950
secret

750
00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:02,170
the corona spy satellite our first one

751
00:36:07,589 --> 00:36:04,960
there were twelve failures in secret we

752
00:36:09,930 --> 00:36:07,599
heard nothing about those for thirty

753
00:36:10,410 --> 00:36:09,940
years it got more the first successful

754
00:36:13,140 --> 00:36:10,420
one

755
00:36:15,779 --> 00:36:13,150
got more data than all the u-2 spy

756
00:36:18,990 --> 00:36:15,789
planes had obtained in the years

757
00:36:21,420 --> 00:36:19,000
preceding it there was no announcement

758
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:21,430
about the reality of the corona spy

759
00:36:27,210 --> 00:36:25,450
satellite for thirty years a lot of

760
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:27,220
people to build a satellite and handle

761
00:36:32,250 --> 00:36:29,250
the data and all that sort of thing so

762
00:36:34,109 --> 00:36:32,260
secrets aren't that difficult to keep if

763
00:36:36,210 --> 00:36:34,119
you make an effort to keep them how

764
00:36:38,250 --> 00:36:36,220
sometimes you say hey no sense keeping

765
00:36:40,849 --> 00:36:38,260
that secret anymore everybody knows you

766
00:36:47,089 --> 00:36:40,859
know when the first atom bomb was tested

767
00:36:49,890 --> 00:36:47,099
Trinity site in New Mexico in July of 45

768
00:36:53,150 --> 00:36:49,900
it was seen from a hundred miles away it

769
00:36:54,990 --> 00:36:53,160
was rather a spectacular event and

770
00:36:59,490 --> 00:36:55,000
people were calling the sheriff's

771
00:37:01,559 --> 00:36:59,500
offices and the cover story was put in

772
00:37:04,230 --> 00:37:01,569
the paper an ammunition dump had blown

773
00:37:05,849 --> 00:37:04,240
up and fortunately nobody was injured it

774
00:37:10,519 --> 00:37:05,859
was only after we dropped the two bosses

775
00:37:14,519 --> 00:37:10,529
on Japan but oh yeah you know people saw

776
00:37:16,950 --> 00:37:14,529
the clear explosion first what it seems

777
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:16,960
to me it would be a really big burden to

778
00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:19,690
carry if you knew that there was life

779
00:37:26,339 --> 00:37:23,200
elsewhere it just seems like would be

780
00:37:30,019 --> 00:37:26,349
such a hard secret to keep it's so

781
00:37:33,150 --> 00:37:30,029
important well wait a minute you just

782
00:37:34,650 --> 00:37:33,160
it's it's important to keep it look at

783
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:34,660
all the people who worked on a Manhattan

784
00:37:42,029 --> 00:37:37,930
Project the general groves who directed

785
00:37:44,130 --> 00:37:42,039
the project I never told his wife what

786
00:37:47,730 --> 00:37:44,140
he was doing and she didn't find him

787
00:37:52,020 --> 00:37:47,740
kind of funny somebody in his office at

788
00:37:55,650 --> 00:37:52,030
the Pentagon called her August I believe

789
00:37:57,810 --> 00:37:55,660
it was a 6 1945 suggesting she would

790
00:38:02,190 --> 00:37:57,820
luck she ought to listen to the radio

791
00:38:04,050 --> 00:38:02,200
that noon that day and so she did and if

792
00:38:06,570 --> 00:38:04,060
they announced that the first atomic

793
00:38:09,330 --> 00:38:06,580
bomb had been dropped on Hiroshima and

794
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:09,340
the war would soon be over and she

795
00:38:13,110 --> 00:38:11,290
thought that that was the reason because

796
00:38:14,850 --> 00:38:13,120
that she had a son she in the general

797
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:14,860
had a son who was due to be sent to the

798
00:38:19,170 --> 00:38:17,410
Pacific to fight over there and she

799
00:38:21,420 --> 00:38:19,180
thought that they were being nice and

800
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:21,430
they you know it would be nice to know

801
00:38:25,620 --> 00:38:22,960
that your son isn't going to be involved

802
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:25,630
in a horrible invasion of Japan the last

803
00:38:31,620 --> 00:38:28,810
line of the program said this incredible

804
00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:31,630
program to develop an atomic bomb was

805
00:38:36,210 --> 00:38:33,250
under the direction of General Leslie

806
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:36,220
groves that's when she found out what

807
00:38:43,230 --> 00:38:37,930
he'd been doing for the previous two

808
00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:43,240
years mind you so yes secrets can be

809
00:38:49,890 --> 00:38:47,520
kept and you know you don't trust people

810
00:38:51,540 --> 00:38:49,900
unless you have a reason they've gone

811
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:51,550
through a security clearance you checked

812
00:38:59,690 --> 00:38:52,810
on their background you've checked on

813
00:39:02,640 --> 00:38:59,700
your families the record it isn't just a

814
00:39:04,620 --> 00:39:02,650
notation of a pen by somebody saying oh

815
00:39:07,350 --> 00:39:04,630
I think that guy is on this week we can

816
00:39:09,570 --> 00:39:07,360
trust him it's a long difficult

817
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:09,580
procedure and especially for very highly

818
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:13,210
classified today I would like to add to

819
00:39:18,540 --> 00:39:16,090
that it is a crime for military

820
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:18,550
personnel to discuss classified UFO

821
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:22,690
reports with unauthorized persons and so

822
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:27,250
if you were to do so you faced a $10,000

823
00:39:35,850 --> 00:39:31,330
fine and prison term so that's something

824
00:39:43,110 --> 00:39:35,860
that is held over your head as well lots

825
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:43,120
of pension I've heard yes yeah right so

826
00:39:46,950 --> 00:39:45,250
yeah I can kind of understand it just

827
00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:46,960
seems like it would be such a tough

828
00:39:51,530 --> 00:39:48,910
secret something that important to keep

829
00:39:57,450 --> 00:39:51,540
but you know I have heard for instance

830
00:40:01,170 --> 00:39:57,460
been from fact or faked Ben Hansen

831
00:40:05,460 --> 00:40:01,180
his grandfather basically at the very

832
00:40:09,900 --> 00:40:05,470
end of his life told his his son Ben's

833
00:40:12,660 --> 00:40:09,910
father that we're not alone you know and

834
00:40:16,530 --> 00:40:12,670
it was like a secret he had to get off

835
00:40:21,829 --> 00:40:16,540
his chest at the very end that's when

836
00:40:24,510 --> 00:40:21,839
you hear it read confessions interesting

837
00:40:28,799 --> 00:40:24,520
Kathy I have a question from the message

838
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:28,809
board for you and since you and Denise

839
00:40:35,099 --> 00:40:31,980
stoner produced the commonality study

840
00:40:40,740 --> 00:40:35,109
have any other intriguing commonalities

841
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:40,750
been observed in other words he's

842
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:43,359
discovered more commonalities and we

843
00:40:50,309 --> 00:40:45,450
have we have discovered more

844
00:40:54,780 --> 00:40:50,319
commonalities we have an expanded 118

845
00:40:59,520 --> 00:40:54,790
question study going on at MUFON calm

846
00:41:03,900 --> 00:40:59,530
right now it's the experiencer survey

847
00:41:07,710 --> 00:41:03,910
and just let me throw out one thing that

848
00:41:10,349 --> 00:41:07,720
I was really astounded by and we don't

849
00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:10,359
have all the results in yet so I can't

850
00:41:14,490 --> 00:41:12,640
and not well I couldn't give the

851
00:41:17,700 --> 00:41:14,500
statistics anyway because the study

852
00:41:20,789 --> 00:41:17,710
isn't completed but I was surprised at

853
00:41:24,329 --> 00:41:20,799
the high number of individuals who

854
00:41:27,660 --> 00:41:24,339
reported dead walking which you also

855
00:41:29,549 --> 00:41:27,670
find in paranormal cases but it was

856
00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:29,559
quite a high percentage of individuals

857
00:41:36,750 --> 00:41:33,520
who would be on their beds and they

858
00:41:40,589 --> 00:41:36,760
would feel something invisible walking

859
00:41:44,099 --> 00:41:40,599
around on the bed beside them on top of

860
00:41:47,609 --> 00:41:44,109
them sometimes and so I I thought that

861
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:47,619
was quite interesting and I'm hoping to

862
00:41:53,190 --> 00:41:50,530
have within the next few months I'm

863
00:41:55,799 --> 00:41:53,200
hoping to have the results of the new

864
00:41:57,990 --> 00:41:55,809
study out but I need everybody's help is

865
00:42:01,530 --> 00:41:58,000
listening if you're an experiencer

866
00:42:05,670 --> 00:42:01,540
please complete the experience or quest

867
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:05,680
not questionnaire survey where do they

868
00:42:12,930 --> 00:42:09,710
find it Kathy it's at MUFON comm it is

869
00:42:19,420 --> 00:42:12,940
the main page just scroll down to the

870
00:42:22,260 --> 00:42:19,430
ERT experience a research team ok giving

871
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:22,270
back to the book I wanted to also

872
00:42:28,569 --> 00:42:26,930
congratulate stand for that thousand

873
00:42:31,210 --> 00:42:28,579
dollar check that you got from Phil

874
00:42:36,690 --> 00:42:31,220
class I remember you telling the story

875
00:42:39,430 --> 00:42:36,700
about that I see it published here again

876
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:39,440
it's a story worth telling because not

877
00:42:45,670 --> 00:42:42,410
everybody knows about it ok

878
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:45,680
so class who was certainly a nasty noisy

879
00:42:52,540 --> 00:42:48,890
negative Asst when I mentioned majestic

880
00:42:54,849 --> 00:42:52,550
12 one of the documents was a short

881
00:43:00,549 --> 00:42:54,859
document that was found at the National

882
00:43:04,270 --> 00:43:00,559
Archives and he said well obviously it's

883
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:04,280
a fraud it has the word NSC the initials

884
00:43:11,500 --> 00:43:07,010
NSE on the National Security Council and

885
00:43:14,140 --> 00:43:11,510
it he said look it's done in the large

886
00:43:17,799 --> 00:43:14,150
Planko type at the NSC only used the

887
00:43:20,020 --> 00:43:17,809
small a leap type and here's nine

888
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:20,030
documents to prove that and I challenge

889
00:43:27,099 --> 00:43:24,530
you me to find any other documents with

890
00:43:29,380 --> 00:43:27,109
the same size and style type and meeting

891
00:43:31,390 --> 00:43:29,390
the rather long list of qualifications

892
00:43:36,910 --> 00:43:31,400
and they're kind of signatures and

893
00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:36,920
sorghum's on and I will pay you showing

894
00:43:42,220 --> 00:43:38,240
that I'm putting my money where my mouth

895
00:43:47,380 --> 00:43:42,230
is I will pay you $100 each up to a

896
00:43:50,799 --> 00:43:47,390
maximum of ten and you've got 60 days it

897
00:43:52,930 --> 00:43:50,809
was a ridiculous offer but I'll tell you

898
00:43:55,299 --> 00:43:52,940
why in a minute anyway I went to my

899
00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:55,309
files first thing and I got loads of

900
00:43:58,539 --> 00:43:56,720
mature because I've spent a lot of time

901
00:44:02,650 --> 00:43:58,549
at the Eisenhower library and I

902
00:44:04,270 --> 00:44:02,660
immediately found 20 documents with the

903
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:04,280
large pike that's right but they didn't

904
00:44:07,900 --> 00:44:06,170
mean all this criteria but he allowed

905
00:44:10,359 --> 00:44:07,910
two and thought he was getting away

906
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:10,369
scot-free well I was planning on going

907
00:44:16,539 --> 00:44:12,970
to the Eisenhower library and so I went

908
00:44:19,329 --> 00:44:16,549
with in the plotted time frame and

909
00:44:22,089 --> 00:44:19,339
picked out 14 that met all his criteria

910
00:44:23,170 --> 00:44:22,099
made copies sent him an invoice for

911
00:44:28,690 --> 00:44:23,180
$1,000

912
00:44:30,609 --> 00:44:28,700
a limit of 10 unfortunately and I sent

913
00:44:32,589 --> 00:44:30,619
him the invoice and the documents and he

914
00:44:34,690 --> 00:44:32,599
paid me he told I'd told everybody about

915
00:44:37,059 --> 00:44:34,700
challenging me but nobody about paying

916
00:44:42,450 --> 00:44:37,069
me and one of the things that Cathy

917
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:42,460
found when she visited the archives in

918
00:44:46,450 --> 00:44:44,720
the American Philosophical Society

919
00:44:47,319 --> 00:44:46,460
library which has his papers she

920
00:44:49,030 --> 00:44:47,329
mentioned that before

921
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:49,040
one of the things that was rather

922
00:44:56,140 --> 00:44:51,890
surprising is there was no Stanton

923
00:44:59,410 --> 00:44:56,150
Friedman file even though he and I of

924
00:45:01,900 --> 00:44:59,420
course wanted for 2014 20 years I wonder

925
00:45:04,660 --> 00:45:01,910
if he really didn't want anybody to know

926
00:45:08,349 --> 00:45:04,670
that he paid me anyway

927
00:45:10,170 --> 00:45:08,359
when I published a copy of the check in

928
00:45:13,930 --> 00:45:10,180
one of my books

929
00:45:18,370 --> 00:45:13,940
he hit the ceiling he threatened to sue

930
00:45:23,740 --> 00:45:18,380
me and for why the game for publishing

931
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:23,750
that check and I had put a black March

932
00:45:30,339 --> 00:45:26,930
through some of the check information so

933
00:45:32,140 --> 00:45:30,349
nobody couldn't cheat him I guess and so

934
00:45:36,220 --> 00:45:32,150
I wrote him back a letter saying Phil

935
00:45:38,710 --> 00:45:36,230
you sent me a check hi Xerox bid I took

936
00:45:42,609 --> 00:45:38,720
it to the bank they cashed it I can do

937
00:45:45,339 --> 00:45:42,619
whatever I darn please with Xerox and he

938
00:45:48,819 --> 00:45:45,349
didn't say anything more but it's in the

939
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:48,829
book and when I use it at my lectures I

940
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:51,890
always can guarantee you that the thing

941
00:45:57,069 --> 00:45:53,210
if you kind of put your money where your

942
00:46:00,430 --> 00:45:57,079
mouth is and so Phil was saying he

943
00:46:02,500 --> 00:46:00,440
always did but until he paid me he

944
00:46:04,390 --> 00:46:02,510
hadn't put any of his money then the

945
00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:04,400
interesting thing I found out the most

946
00:46:11,349 --> 00:46:08,510
shocking thing is that he had never and

947
00:46:13,900 --> 00:46:11,359
this was after he had never been to the

948
00:46:19,059 --> 00:46:13,910
Eisenhower library and here he was

949
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:19,069
saying they have 250,000 pages of

950
00:46:23,049 --> 00:46:20,930
national security council material there

951
00:46:24,789 --> 00:46:23,059
and he was saying they're all done on

952
00:46:27,130 --> 00:46:24,799
the same typewriter he didn't know how

953
00:46:30,730 --> 00:46:27,140
many there were of course he had nine

954
00:46:32,910 --> 00:46:30,740
that he got by mail this is typical of

955
00:46:36,789 --> 00:46:32,920
the intellectual bankruptcy of the

956
00:46:37,450 --> 00:46:36,799
pseudoscience of anti ufology Cathy's

957
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:37,460
heard me say

958
00:46:51,250 --> 00:46:48,410
27 whatever but it's still true and one

959
00:46:53,470 --> 00:46:51,260
of my basic rules and Cathy's rule 2 is

960
00:46:57,940 --> 00:46:53,480
have facts in hand before putting mouth

961
00:47:00,190 --> 00:46:57,950
or pen and gear and we really feel that

962
00:47:05,170 --> 00:47:00,200
more people in ufology and in both sides

963
00:47:06,780 --> 00:47:05,180
of the fence would do that do your

964
00:47:12,430 --> 00:47:06,790
homework

965
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:12,440
yes election there this part on class

966
00:47:19,570 --> 00:47:16,010
and the Travis Walton case is pretty

967
00:47:22,089 --> 00:47:19,580
interesting and and maybe Kathy can talk

968
00:47:25,990 --> 00:47:22,099
a little bit about that and also I

969
00:47:30,220 --> 00:47:26,000
remember speaking to Steve Pierce who

970
00:47:31,780 --> 00:47:30,230
said that he class offered him and maybe

971
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:31,790
I'm getting this wrong but offered him

972
00:47:41,859 --> 00:47:34,010
$10,000 if he would say the whole thing

973
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:41,869
was a lie yes yes I certainly did and I

974
00:47:47,620 --> 00:47:44,290
that's one thing that I was looking for

975
00:47:51,310 --> 00:47:47,630
at the American Philosophical Society

976
00:47:55,420 --> 00:47:51,320
what I found is that class had a very

977
00:47:59,040 --> 00:47:55,430
thick folder of information on the the

978
00:48:04,109 --> 00:47:59,050
Walton case he had corresponded with

979
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:04,119
everybody made telephone calls and he

980
00:48:11,890 --> 00:48:08,650
would transcribe the way that he

981
00:48:15,670 --> 00:48:11,900
apparently wanted the conversation to

982
00:48:18,690 --> 00:48:15,680
have gone because he was accused over

983
00:48:23,710 --> 00:48:18,700
and over again of lying when he

984
00:48:28,180 --> 00:48:23,720
transcribed what people had said and he

985
00:48:31,950 --> 00:48:28,190
from the day one when he got in on this

986
00:48:36,790 --> 00:48:31,960
investigation was hell-bent on

987
00:48:41,020 --> 00:48:36,800
destroying not only the validity of this

988
00:48:46,210 --> 00:48:41,030
case but the people who were involved in

989
00:48:50,500 --> 00:48:46,220
this case as well and for Travis Walton

990
00:48:51,220 --> 00:48:50,510
22 years old and really in a state of

991
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:51,230
shock

992
00:49:00,760 --> 00:48:55,490
after he was returned was just ripped to

993
00:49:04,060 --> 00:49:00,770
ribbons by class and you know he was

994
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:04,070
accused of lying his entire family was

995
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:07,250
accused of lying they they challenged

996
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:12,770
class and said look my family and all of

997
00:49:18,990 --> 00:49:16,250
the members of the logging crew everyone

998
00:49:22,420 --> 00:49:19,000
who was there and involved in this case

999
00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:22,430
wants to take lie-detector testing to

1000
00:49:30,190 --> 00:49:25,520
prove that we are telling the truth and

1001
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:30,200
class agreed to it initially he said

1002
00:49:36,190 --> 00:49:34,010
that he would pay for it and that as

1003
00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:36,200
long as they could find a mutually

1004
00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:39,920
agreeable hypnotist not hypnotist a lie

1005
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:45,310
detector test polygraph examiner who

1006
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:51,130
would conduct the lie-detector test so

1007
00:49:56,650 --> 00:49:53,810
they went back and forth there was

1008
00:50:00,010 --> 00:49:56,660
someone who was a very very good

1009
00:50:02,260 --> 00:50:00,020
polygraph examiner but class kept

1010
00:50:05,290 --> 00:50:02,270
finding problems with them well maybe

1011
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:05,300
that person had too much information

1012
00:50:09,490 --> 00:50:06,290
about UFOs

1013
00:50:14,530 --> 00:50:09,500
maybe that person might believe that

1014
00:50:16,930 --> 00:50:14,540
UFOs were real and then he of course

1015
00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:16,940
class knew a lot about the

1016
00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:19,730
characteristics of polygraph exams and

1017
00:50:30,970 --> 00:50:25,910
that you can persuade the the person who

1018
00:50:33,970 --> 00:50:30,980
is taking the test to do poorly on it if

1019
00:50:36,490 --> 00:50:33,980
you antagonize that person if you are

1020
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:36,500
there too because what it does is that

1021
00:50:43,780 --> 00:50:41,170
it to tests ones level of emotions and

1022
00:50:45,940 --> 00:50:43,790
not necessarily whether or not you're

1023
00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:45,950
telling the truth so if a person is

1024
00:50:52,359 --> 00:50:48,710
stressed because they're being

1025
00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:52,369
antagonized they could fail the exam but

1026
00:50:59,339 --> 00:50:54,800
what class decided that he wanted to do

1027
00:51:02,620 --> 00:50:59,349
is he wanted to be there and be present

1028
00:51:04,750 --> 00:51:02,630
during the polygraph exam and I think

1029
00:51:07,870 --> 00:51:04,760
that that his reason for

1030
00:51:11,170 --> 00:51:07,880
doing that was that he wanted to

1031
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:11,180
antagonize those witnesses well he ended

1032
00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:14,450
up not funding it the the deal was that

1033
00:51:22,090 --> 00:51:18,910
he was going to fund it if they failed

1034
00:51:25,420 --> 00:51:22,100
or he was going to find it if they

1035
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:25,430
passed and they would going to fund it

1036
00:51:30,670 --> 00:51:27,770
if they failed that's the way it went

1037
00:51:34,620 --> 00:51:30,680
and but it never did take place of

1038
00:51:39,820 --> 00:51:34,630
course other polygraph examiner's did

1039
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:39,830
give exam multiple exams to Travis and

1040
00:51:47,230 --> 00:51:44,090
to Travis's brother and to the what a

1041
00:51:49,690 --> 00:51:47,240
member of my crew who had originally

1042
00:51:51,910 --> 00:51:49,700
taken the test but the results were

1043
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:51,920
equivocal because he had walked out

1044
00:51:57,910 --> 00:51:55,010
during the exam so they didn't really

1045
00:52:02,680 --> 00:51:57,920
have a result they all took tests after

1046
00:52:07,990 --> 00:52:02,690
that and passed was that Dallas yes that

1047
00:52:12,100 --> 00:52:08,000
was Allen Dallas and so after that other

1048
00:52:15,940 --> 00:52:12,110
things they tried to do well class just

1049
00:52:18,460 --> 00:52:15,950
found out that Travis Walton had a

1050
00:52:22,330 --> 00:52:18,470
puncture wound on the backside of his

1051
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:22,340
elbow and so immediately he looked for a

1052
00:52:29,590 --> 00:52:26,210
reason for that puncture wound and what

1053
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:29,600
kind of drugs might he have been and

1054
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:32,570
injecting to cause him to hallucinate

1055
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:38,090
this experience and the doctors ended up

1056
00:52:44,050 --> 00:52:40,370
finding out that the puncture wound was

1057
00:52:46,210 --> 00:52:44,060
not over a vein it was a puncture wound

1058
00:52:48,850 --> 00:52:46,220
that looked like it probably had been

1059
00:52:52,990 --> 00:52:48,860
caused by a tree branch or something

1060
00:52:55,870 --> 00:52:53,000
like that but class insisted that oh

1061
00:52:58,210 --> 00:52:55,880
well he just missed the vein and it went

1062
00:53:01,060 --> 00:52:58,220
into the muscle you know it was just

1063
00:53:06,730 --> 00:53:01,070
absolutely ridiculous but it was one

1064
00:53:10,690 --> 00:53:06,740
thing after another class knew the truth

1065
00:53:13,540 --> 00:53:10,700
about a lot of this case from the people

1066
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:13,550
that he had interviewed he interviewed

1067
00:53:18,430 --> 00:53:18,110
the owner of the factory where Travis

1068
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:18,440
wall

1069
00:53:23,170 --> 00:53:20,530
and had worked when he was a teenager

1070
00:53:26,740 --> 00:53:23,180
the factory owner liked him

1071
00:53:29,710 --> 00:53:26,750
Travis spent cold nights visiting their

1072
00:53:32,940 --> 00:53:29,720
house sometimes spent the night he was a

1073
00:53:37,870 --> 00:53:32,950
friend of the factory owned her son but

1074
00:53:41,559 --> 00:53:37,880
class turned that all around and twisted

1075
00:53:45,789 --> 00:53:41,569
it to make it look as if Travis was some

1076
00:53:48,819 --> 00:53:45,799
kind of a criminal and it happened over

1077
00:53:52,779 --> 00:53:48,829
and over again and this is not unusual I

1078
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:52,789
give many many examples in the book of

1079
00:54:00,630 --> 00:53:57,530
not only Travis Walton but in the the

1080
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:00,640
case of Betty cash and Vickie Landrum

1081
00:54:09,839 --> 00:54:05,690
north of Houston and all fair rod is a

1082
00:54:14,770 --> 00:54:09,849
Maura case as well all of classes

1083
00:54:18,220 --> 00:54:14,780
insidious attempts to discredit these

1084
00:54:23,049 --> 00:54:18,230
individuals and and these attempts were

1085
00:54:25,870 --> 00:54:23,059
dishonest attempts yes someone is trying

1086
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:25,880
to call into the show for some reason

1087
00:54:30,460 --> 00:54:28,010
the Skype is not working to allow me to

1088
00:54:32,170 --> 00:54:30,470
add them to the call so if you're

1089
00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:32,180
calling and you hear me I'm sorry can't

1090
00:54:37,630 --> 00:54:34,730
can't take take take your call if you'd

1091
00:54:41,140 --> 00:54:37,640
like to ask a question in a chat room

1092
00:54:44,589 --> 00:54:41,150
feel free to jump on podcast UFO comm

1093
00:54:49,299 --> 00:54:44,599
and log in to the chat room and send a

1094
00:54:52,180 --> 00:54:49,309
question in right now or not yeah two or

1095
00:54:55,089 --> 00:54:52,190
three can't add you to that stand

1096
00:54:57,609 --> 00:54:55,099
earlier you said that no one was more

1097
00:54:58,680 --> 00:54:57,619
blatant than Menzel what did you mean by

1098
00:55:05,140 --> 00:54:58,690
that

1099
00:55:07,599 --> 00:55:05,150
well look he wrote three books one of

1100
00:55:12,039 --> 00:55:07,609
the very few scientists three debunking

1101
00:55:14,289 --> 00:55:12,049
books and I always came up with

1102
00:55:17,470 --> 00:55:14,299
explanations that made no sense and as

1103
00:55:19,930 --> 00:55:17,480
we say in the book Cathy well were this

1104
00:55:22,900 --> 00:55:19,940
quite carefully when they met with the

1105
00:55:24,430 --> 00:55:22,910
air force they weren't buying it he said

1106
00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:24,440
he had an explanation for all these

1107
00:55:31,630 --> 00:55:28,910
cases and they had no reason to believe

1108
00:55:33,820 --> 00:55:31,640
him but he came on

1109
00:55:38,110 --> 00:55:33,830
very very strong taking advantage of his

1110
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:38,120
status at Harvard and it was only after

1111
00:55:43,780 --> 00:55:41,440
I found out about his encounter with

1112
00:55:45,730 --> 00:55:43,790
having his clearance pulled and all this

1113
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:45,740
stuff that I kind of felt sorry for him

1114
00:55:49,210 --> 00:55:48,170
and then when I found out that he was on

1115
00:55:54,010 --> 00:55:49,220
the inside

1116
00:55:59,800 --> 00:55:54,020
this is mj-12 stuff then I I appreciated

1117
00:56:02,350 --> 00:55:59,810
his work there aren't secrecy is one of

1118
00:56:05,860 --> 00:56:02,360
those things that's important because in

1119
00:56:10,090 --> 00:56:05,870
both directions Burgess Philby in McLean

1120
00:56:13,210 --> 00:56:10,100
for example were three Englishmen who

1121
00:56:14,410 --> 00:56:13,220
unfortunately were Russian spies even

1122
00:56:18,490 --> 00:56:14,420
though they worked in British

1123
00:56:22,210 --> 00:56:18,500
intelligence now that takes a lot of

1124
00:56:25,060 --> 00:56:22,220
double life in a few so nobody knows

1125
00:56:28,750 --> 00:56:25,070
where the information got leaked from

1126
00:56:31,620 --> 00:56:28,760
and stuff like that there are examples

1127
00:56:34,900 --> 00:56:31,630
of people leading a double life but

1128
00:56:39,720 --> 00:56:34,910
Menzel's being one of them was something

1129
00:56:48,670 --> 00:56:43,120
what can I say I started to respect him

1130
00:56:51,130 --> 00:56:48,680
for that and I had one encounter with

1131
00:56:54,300 --> 00:56:51,140
them all it's all very quickly I was

1132
00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:54,310
speaking at Harvard to a group of

1133
00:56:59,590 --> 00:56:57,650
engineering alumni of Harvard and I had

1134
00:57:02,800 --> 00:56:59,600
no idea how much publicity they'd given

1135
00:57:05,950 --> 00:57:02,810
outside their own group so I came on

1136
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:05,960
campus or earlier in the day and I

1137
00:57:10,420 --> 00:57:09,410
called Mendel to invite him and I told

1138
00:57:12,550 --> 00:57:10,430
them who I was

1139
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:12,560
oh I know all about you Lisa which came

1140
00:57:18,940 --> 00:57:15,650
as a shock not only because of some work

1141
00:57:21,790 --> 00:57:18,950
that Kathy did that I find out why what

1142
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:21,800
that meant but he said you can't be a

1143
00:57:28,570 --> 00:57:24,170
scientist and believe in flying saucers

1144
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:28,580
and I laughed what could I do and he got

1145
00:57:34,270 --> 00:57:32,330
angry and he started to rant and I said

1146
00:57:36,070 --> 00:57:34,280
[\h__\h] document so I didn't call argue

1147
00:57:38,710 --> 00:57:36,080
with you I called out of courtesy I'm

1148
00:57:41,620 --> 00:57:38,720
speaking on your campus I have no idea

1149
00:57:43,210 --> 00:57:41,630
what publicity has gone out besides the

1150
00:57:44,530 --> 00:57:43,220
group that I'm speaking to because you

1151
00:57:46,690 --> 00:57:44,540
never know

1152
00:57:48,310 --> 00:57:46,700
I just wanted to make sure you knew that

1153
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:48,320
I'd be here at eight o'clock at

1154
00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:51,530
such-and-such a hall oh well of course I

1155
00:57:59,530 --> 00:57:57,170
won't attend and that bit didn't impress

1156
00:58:01,540 --> 00:57:59,540
me very well but here's a great

1157
00:58:05,890 --> 00:58:01,550
professor saying he can't be a scientist

1158
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:05,900
believe in flying saucers so the mental

1159
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:08,450
stuff was important because he was a

1160
00:58:11,850 --> 00:58:11,090
bellwether for the nasty noisy

1161
00:58:14,410 --> 00:58:11,860
negativeness

1162
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:14,420
but we know that he was an insider and I

1163
00:58:19,390 --> 00:58:17,210
guarantee you that practically nobody

1164
00:58:22,570 --> 00:58:19,400
knew of his high-level security

1165
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:22,580
clearance his activities for the FBI the

1166
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:31,130
CIA the NSA and as the etc he was he

1167
00:58:35,380 --> 00:58:33,290
really did lead a double life

1168
00:58:37,290 --> 00:58:35,390
and he died with nobody knowing about it

1169
00:58:41,020 --> 00:58:37,300
hmm

1170
00:58:44,830 --> 00:58:41,030
and there was an article in the Center

1171
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:44,840
for UFO studies publication that I wrote

1172
00:58:47,950 --> 00:58:46,730
about the double life of Donald pencil

1173
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:47,960
and a lot of people were very excited

1174
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:49,010
with me

1175
00:58:55,900 --> 00:58:52,490
it can't be and one of the things that I

1176
00:58:59,320 --> 00:58:55,910
found interesting was these hearings

1177
00:59:01,630 --> 00:58:59,330
that were held 1950 you know communists

1178
00:59:04,780 --> 00:59:01,640
under on every bed and sometimes two

1179
00:59:06,430 --> 00:59:04,790
under event uh there was nothing in the

1180
00:59:09,580 --> 00:59:06,440
New York Times or The Washington Post

1181
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:09,590
about that this is when everybody was

1182
00:59:17,230 --> 00:59:14,170
complaining about commies pinkos etc etc

1183
00:59:19,210 --> 00:59:17,240
and I I was surprised that there was

1184
00:59:22,030 --> 00:59:19,220
nothing about that and then I wonder who

1185
00:59:24,490 --> 00:59:22,040
was responsible for that you know

1186
00:59:27,310 --> 00:59:24,500
thought the press had been camped at the

1187
00:59:30,460 --> 00:59:27,320
door but they weren't or if they were

1188
00:59:31,750 --> 00:59:30,470
nobody was printing anything yeah I

1189
00:59:34,870 --> 00:59:31,760
wanted to talk to you and I bought one

1190
00:59:40,570 --> 00:59:34,880
of the chapters in the media the press

1191
00:59:44,620 --> 00:59:40,580
but one thing I was really fascinated to

1192
00:59:47,260 --> 00:59:44,630
read about was the astronomers and UFOs

1193
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:47,270
how there's claims that no astronomer

1194
00:59:52,990 --> 00:59:50,570
has ever seen a UFO and the point that I

1195
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:53,000
don't know who wrote this particular

1196
00:59:59,620 --> 00:59:56,890
chapter but the point was that

1197
01:00:02,890 --> 00:59:59,630
astronomers are see

1198
01:00:06,279 --> 01:00:02,900
in a chair very targeted looking at a

1199
01:00:09,069 --> 01:00:06,289
very targeted area while amateur

1200
01:00:12,039 --> 01:00:09,079
astronomers of like the one that used to

1201
01:00:13,809 --> 01:00:12,049
be on this show did see a UFO and a lot

1202
01:00:16,569 --> 01:00:13,819
of them do see UFOs because they're out

1203
01:00:21,130 --> 01:00:16,579
in the open sky never thought of it that

1204
01:00:22,269 --> 01:00:21,140
way but that does make total sense it's

1205
01:00:24,250 --> 01:00:22,279
true and as a matter of fact the

1206
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:24,260
Allegheny Observatory in Pittsburgh I

1207
01:00:29,859 --> 01:00:28,010
think over umpteen years had one picture

1208
01:00:32,890 --> 01:00:29,869
that might have been an airplane going

1209
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:32,900
by that field of view of a telescope is

1210
01:00:37,150 --> 01:00:35,210
very very small and people have this

1211
01:00:39,309 --> 01:00:37,160
picture of astronomers waving the

1212
01:00:41,079 --> 01:00:39,319
telescope around to look around and see

1213
01:00:41,890 --> 01:00:41,089
what's there that's not that they do it

1214
01:00:44,349 --> 01:00:41,900
at all

1215
01:00:45,849 --> 01:00:44,359
the instruments aren't designed to be

1216
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:45,859
done they have to be very specially

1217
01:00:51,339 --> 01:00:49,130
mounted and they have a pre-selected

1218
01:00:53,799 --> 01:00:51,349
target and these days certainly and

1219
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:53,809
they're computer-controlled so that you

1220
01:00:59,799 --> 01:00:56,210
can get pictures of what you want to get

1221
01:01:02,799 --> 01:00:59,809
pictures of and you could be surrounded

1222
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:02,809
by aliens and flying saucers and nobody

1223
01:01:07,059 --> 01:01:05,450
would know it you're not gonna see him

1224
01:01:10,089 --> 01:01:07,069
looking through the telescope I mean

1225
01:01:14,230 --> 01:01:10,099
that it's one of those myths you know I

1226
01:01:17,349 --> 01:01:14,240
was up looking at Andromeda through a an

1227
01:01:20,559 --> 01:01:17,359
observatory at a college about five

1228
01:01:22,930 --> 01:01:20,569
years ago and when I was looking up a I

1229
01:01:26,260 --> 01:01:22,940
mean the odds of this happening are so

1230
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:26,270
slight but a meteor went across the lens

1231
01:01:32,109 --> 01:01:28,970
and it darn near blinded me mm-hmm

1232
01:01:36,910 --> 01:01:32,119
and maybe like jump almost fall off the

1233
01:01:37,299 --> 01:01:36,920
stool everything well you get what I

1234
01:01:39,599 --> 01:01:37,309
mean

1235
01:01:43,569 --> 01:01:39,609
yeah you don't see much of this guy

1236
01:01:46,750 --> 01:01:43,579
right a very tiny tiny little bit now

1237
01:01:48,910 --> 01:01:46,760
one of your chapters chapter 10 a hard

1238
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:48,920
look at the media the UFO community and

1239
01:01:53,289 --> 01:01:51,170
the trend towards sensationalism can you

1240
01:01:58,870 --> 01:01:53,299
just either one of you one of you take

1241
01:02:01,569 --> 01:01:58,880
that kind of the joke we both can but we

1242
01:02:03,970 --> 01:02:01,579
and we both contributed to that chapter

1243
01:02:09,940 --> 01:02:03,980
as we did to many of the chapters in the

1244
01:02:11,830 --> 01:02:09,950
book but we we covered some of the

1245
01:02:15,250 --> 01:02:11,840
positive aspects

1246
01:02:18,820 --> 01:02:15,260
of the media but also some of the the

1247
01:02:24,370 --> 01:02:18,830
negative things that have happened as

1248
01:02:29,110 --> 01:02:24,380
well and for example one of those was a

1249
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:29,120
television show that Stanton that

1250
01:02:39,420 --> 01:02:34,610
Stanton did and this was up in Canada

1251
01:02:44,380 --> 01:02:39,430
what was it sir on toasting in Toronto

1252
01:02:49,150 --> 01:02:44,390
yes the Mort Shulman show and it was

1253
01:02:51,610 --> 01:02:49,160
incredible the way more Shulman who was

1254
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:51,620
actually a medical doctor showed

1255
01:02:59,110 --> 01:02:55,370
incredible disrespect for Stanton and

1256
01:03:01,780 --> 01:02:59,120
asked him questions like have have you

1257
01:03:02,530 --> 01:03:01,790
ever been diagnosed with a psychiatric

1258
01:03:05,140 --> 01:03:02,540
disorder

1259
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:05,150
have you ever spent time in a mental

1260
01:03:12,790 --> 01:03:08,090
hospital do you have any scientific

1261
01:03:15,460 --> 01:03:12,800
training whatsoever and I and of course

1262
01:03:17,970 --> 01:03:15,470
Stan did a wonderful job defending

1263
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:17,980
himself and saying of course I've never

1264
01:03:23,860 --> 01:03:20,090
you know I've never been to a

1265
01:03:27,130 --> 01:03:23,870
psychiatrist I've never been he kept his

1266
01:03:32,230 --> 01:03:27,140
cool actually I would I was surprised

1267
01:03:36,580 --> 01:03:32,240
when I saw that Hospital and then he he

1268
01:03:41,050 --> 01:03:36,590
listed his degrees from the University

1269
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:41,060
of Chicago and all the little industries

1270
01:03:53,770 --> 01:03:45,410
that he had work forces such as GE and

1271
01:03:56,410 --> 01:03:53,780
Aerojet general and and and then the

1272
01:03:59,920 --> 01:03:56,420
scientific organizations that he belongs

1273
01:04:04,210 --> 01:03:59,930
to and sort of what Schulman just ended

1274
01:04:07,060 --> 01:04:04,220
up saying he's a crazy scientist and

1275
01:04:11,590 --> 01:04:07,070
then went on to a man who was not a

1276
01:04:15,070 --> 01:04:11,600
scientist but who was the a college

1277
01:04:19,030 --> 01:04:15,080
professor of philosophy he was a secular

1278
01:04:21,849 --> 01:04:19,040
humanist and one of the founders of what

1279
01:04:25,539 --> 01:04:21,859
we call sick up and

1280
01:04:29,380 --> 01:04:25,549
along with Philip class but Shulman

1281
01:04:31,870 --> 01:04:29,390
treated him as if he were the scientist

1282
01:04:36,969 --> 01:04:31,880
and said now tell us what does the

1283
01:04:40,269 --> 01:04:36,979
scientific community think about this it

1284
01:04:43,420 --> 01:04:40,279
was very very slanted in the way it was

1285
01:04:48,870 --> 01:04:43,430
treated and I do think that Philip class

1286
01:04:52,269 --> 01:04:48,880
was in part responsible for the media's

1287
01:04:56,199 --> 01:04:52,279
interpretation and understanding of all

1288
01:04:59,859 --> 01:04:56,209
of this I when I was looking in classes

1289
01:05:03,029 --> 01:04:59,869
files there were letters from Edward

1290
01:05:07,410 --> 01:05:03,039
Condon and in one of those letters

1291
01:05:09,039 --> 01:05:07,420
Condon had written a recommendation to

1292
01:05:14,859 --> 01:05:09,049
mcgraw-hill

1293
01:05:19,140 --> 01:05:14,869
to fill classes at buss and recommended

1294
01:05:24,459 --> 01:05:19,150
that class should be the go-to guy if

1295
01:05:28,269 --> 01:05:24,469
the media wanted an expert on UFOs and

1296
01:05:32,469 --> 01:05:28,279
he said you know don't listen to the

1297
01:05:35,650 --> 01:05:32,479
FOIA Buhl's of people like Professor

1298
01:05:39,099 --> 01:05:35,660
James McDonald who is probably the the

1299
01:05:45,219 --> 01:05:39,109
greatest scientist ever to have lived

1300
01:05:49,349 --> 01:05:45,229
who studied UFOs and did a fantastic job

1301
01:05:56,099 --> 01:05:49,359
on what he did a an asked a

1302
01:06:01,989 --> 01:05:56,109
meteorological physicist at the Arizona

1303
01:06:05,469 --> 01:06:01,999
University of Arizona in Tucson and Phil

1304
01:06:08,759 --> 01:06:05,479
class window after him viciously it was

1305
01:06:11,410 --> 01:06:08,769
one of the three individuals that class

1306
01:06:16,089 --> 01:06:11,420
spent a lot of time attempting to

1307
01:06:18,999 --> 01:06:16,099
destroy Stan was another one but so that

1308
01:06:22,499 --> 01:06:19,009
was the kind of thing that class did he

1309
01:06:26,289 --> 01:06:22,509
he got in there and he spread his

1310
01:06:28,809 --> 01:06:26,299
disinformation to the American public

1311
01:06:31,209 --> 01:06:28,819
through newspaper articles through

1312
01:06:34,700 --> 01:06:31,219
magazines through television programs

1313
01:06:38,870 --> 01:06:34,710
and through radio programs and letters

1314
01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:38,880
to the FBI you know he wrote he was on a

1315
01:06:45,740 --> 01:06:41,130
letter-writing campaign and he made

1316
01:06:47,780 --> 01:06:45,750
himself sound very official for example

1317
01:06:53,750 --> 01:06:47,790
you might have heard about this before

1318
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:53,760
but class born the Hertzberg Institute

1319
01:07:00,579 --> 01:06:56,250
of astrophysics at the National Research

1320
01:07:04,579 --> 01:07:00,589
Council in Ottawa Canada that they had a

1321
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:04,589
ufologist of the snake oil salesman

1322
01:07:13,430 --> 01:07:09,650
variety I read it from California to

1323
01:07:16,190 --> 01:07:13,440
Canada and they ought to beware of him

1324
01:07:20,450 --> 01:07:16,200
and his activities it was quite a long

1325
01:07:25,609 --> 01:07:20,460
letter but it was certainly slanderous

1326
01:07:28,609 --> 01:07:25,619
but stand it hadn't known about it until

1327
01:07:32,990 --> 01:07:28,619
rich Dolan found it when he was up there

1328
01:07:40,220 --> 01:07:33,000
doing research it was he was everywhere

1329
01:07:43,550 --> 01:07:40,230
I'm just amazed that pardon me look what

1330
01:07:47,359 --> 01:07:43,560
he said about Hynek oh absolutely

1331
01:07:52,370 --> 01:07:47,369
that was another one where Hynek had

1332
01:07:56,030 --> 01:07:52,380
written a paper a journal article for

1333
01:07:59,300 --> 01:07:56,040
the FBI law enforcement bulletin and it

1334
01:08:04,550 --> 01:07:59,310
was on UFOs and some of the mistakes

1335
01:08:07,910 --> 01:08:04,560
that people had make the public's

1336
01:08:09,530 --> 01:08:07,920
assumption being wrong and actually it

1337
01:08:12,410 --> 01:08:09,540
was fill class who was giving that

1338
01:08:16,900 --> 01:08:12,420
incorrect information to the public but

1339
01:08:20,630 --> 01:08:16,910
class was very upset about this and he

1340
01:08:24,769 --> 01:08:20,640
called the FBI and he also wrote letters

1341
01:08:28,370 --> 01:08:24,779
to the FBI and the FBI wrote quote in

1342
01:08:31,789 --> 01:08:28,380
strong terms laced with sarcasm class

1343
01:08:34,309 --> 01:08:31,799
said the that Hynek is the spiritual

1344
01:08:37,579 --> 01:08:34,319
leader of the vocal group of believers

1345
01:08:40,430 --> 01:08:37,589
and Coop's who claimed that we are being

1346
01:08:43,670 --> 01:08:40,440
visited by extraterrestrial spaceships

1347
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:43,680
the FBI has given its endorsement to a

1348
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:46,850
hoax that act that UFOs are X of

1349
01:08:53,270 --> 01:08:48,570
extraterrestrial origin

1350
01:08:57,080 --> 01:08:53,280
and to a fraud dr. Hynek which really

1351
01:08:59,170 --> 01:08:57,090
didn't set well with the FBI because

1352
01:09:02,750 --> 01:08:59,180
they were very well acquainted with

1353
01:09:07,310 --> 01:09:02,760
Hynek and and knew that he was at the

1354
01:09:09,170 --> 01:09:07,320
top of his field and so they said the

1355
01:09:12,770 --> 01:09:09,180
class was informed that Hynek is a

1356
01:09:16,790 --> 01:09:12,780
highly respected scientist recognized by

1357
01:09:18,950 --> 01:09:16,800
all creditable professionals in his

1358
01:09:21,610 --> 01:09:18,960
field of expertise who was affiliated

1359
01:09:25,370 --> 01:09:21,620
with a you leading university and

1360
01:09:31,310 --> 01:09:25,380
classes answer to that is he won't be

1361
01:09:34,070 --> 01:09:31,320
for long now it's incredible it was it

1362
01:09:38,150 --> 01:09:34,080
really was and and I think that that was

1363
01:09:41,870 --> 01:09:38,160
because class had a little spy up there

1364
01:09:46,330 --> 01:09:41,880
at Northwestern University who is taking

1365
01:09:50,210 --> 01:09:46,340
astronomy classes from Hynek and was

1366
01:09:54,440 --> 01:09:50,220
reporting back to class with anything

1367
01:09:58,160 --> 01:09:54,450
that class might be able to use in order

1368
01:10:03,140 --> 01:09:58,170
to destroy hynek's reputation well the

1369
01:10:05,780 --> 01:10:03,150
FBI stood up for Hynek too and and wrote

1370
01:10:08,060 --> 01:10:05,790
the classes attempts to discredit Hynek

1371
01:10:10,670 --> 01:10:08,070
are totally without foundation

1372
01:10:14,030 --> 01:10:10,680
Hynek could scarcely have any better

1373
01:10:16,310 --> 01:10:14,040
scientific credentials all his writings

1374
01:10:19,060 --> 01:10:16,320
and public statements that were examined

1375
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:19,070
prior to his publication disclose a

1376
01:10:26,900 --> 01:10:22,130
meticulously objective and scientific

1377
01:10:29,990 --> 01:10:26,910
view of the UFO phenomenon and they had

1378
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:30,000
no such kind remarks to make about

1379
01:10:35,630 --> 01:10:32,370
philip glass they said that they should

1380
01:10:38,510 --> 01:10:35,640
be circumspect in any further dealings

1381
01:10:40,130 --> 01:10:38,520
with them well that's it for the free

1382
01:10:41,990 --> 01:10:40,140
part of the show thank you for listening

1383
01:10:43,730 --> 01:10:42,000
and if you'd like to listen to the whole

1384
01:10:45,980 --> 01:10:43,740
show all you have to do is support us

1385
01:10:48,740 --> 01:10:45,990
for two dollars or more a month that

1386
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:48,750
information is on podcast UFO calm